Author Topic: Can tulpa formation help understand the psychosomatic relation?  (Read 21742 times)

Re: Can tulpa formation help understand the psychosomatic relation?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2013, 05:46:44 AM »
Research sauce? Would like to see that substantiated somehow.

You might want to look at how easy it is to fake memories. I personally like the Bugs Bunny is Disneyland test, it's funny.

I remember seeing multiple posts about tulpa/servitors that could remember scripts of entire movies

Not a very strange thing when you watch the movie enough and pay a lot of attention to it. Kids watching the same movie over and over again and parroting the lines are pretty good at this.

I have been receiving multiple surveys with people claiming that their tulpa has allowed them to control their bodies in ways that they had not previously been able to control. (I guess you could argue they're lying if you wanted to.)
The tulpa is a part of yourself, so technically it's all being done yourself, just that tulpas are somehow doing special that allows them access to parts of the brain previously unknown to function in that way. Maybe you can achieve these abilities without a tulpa specifically, however why I am so fascinated is that the tulpa can 'figure out' how to interact with the mind more intimately than conscious thoughts.

We're pretty biased. We've always done things a certain way so we start thinking there is no other way. Again, it's all about the mindset. The mindset of a person who is unable to do something differently might very well be something like "I can only do it this certain way and I can't change it". A tulpa rarely has a mindset like that, but when they do, they can't change shit either. But if they actually do try to do things differently... Things might very well be different.

Especially early on when this whole tulpa thing was pretty "new", people believed tulpas could do all kinds of things they themselves couldn't. It's pretty easy for a belief like that to rub off on the tulpas and then they think that way, too. So they can do it. I know that my tulpa at least is very sure of his own abilities and that has been a huge help in everything because he doesn't doubt he can do something. No whining of "I'm too weak" or "I don't know how to do that", he just does it. And when I ask how, he says he just does it and because he can do it, so can I. So I can because hell, if he can do it then why can't I? The mind is a crazy place.

I'm sure you know a lot of people who think they can't do something so they don't even try. A person might look at a heavy thing and say they can't lift it, and when asked to try, they try and fail. But then you could go and give them a hand, except you just hold you hands there and make it look like you're lifting when you're really not. And somehow the other person can now lift and move the heavy object themselves even though just moments before they didn't even get it off the ground.

When tulpa creation begins, you don't only begin to talk and wait for response. You decide its functions, what it looks like, personality, etc. The host is the user who makes the decisions. I was abstractly comparing the process of forcing to the process of programming.

Like waffles said, these aren't necessary.

Again, if someone can counter the chart I posted with a more accurate model, that changes the argument.

Not sure how much faith I would want to put on the Freudian model myself... Not to mention last I heard, Bluesleeves didn't see tulpas even having the possibility of being sapient at all. Or something like that, it's been a while since I last read anything written by him so my memory's probably failing me here.

Until they learn how to switch, tulpas don't experience a psychosomatic sensation. They receive the impression of one from the host.

Possession.

Re: Can tulpa formation help understand the psychosomatic relation?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2013, 07:20:51 PM »
I'm probably slow on the uptake, but what's the deal with this article?
http://articles.tulpa.info/amadeus-exodus-a-tale-of-tulpa/
Seems related to what I'm talking about, not sure why I haven't seen it until now:

"I learned to use programmed servitors (and eventually do it myself through conditioning) to manipulate my senses while not forcing. While awake, I started effectively being able to control what information my brain processes. I could block out smells, or sounds. Eventually I could block out very specific chains of sound. Today I can selectively hear or not hear something. I can manipulate the taste of food. I can selectively change the way I perceive color or texture. I can choose to see the sky on fire and snowflakes in the wind."

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That does not mean that they couldn't have done it themselves, given practice. Although, you are right in mentioning the person with the tremors. It might be as you say, but it could also be that the means of possession cuts out the tremor somehow (I'm not familiar with the neurology).
That's what I'm interested in. It could be something the person would have done themselves; but, they didn't. So what is it about tulpas that makes them able to 'figure this out' while the host is unable to?

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We're pretty biased. We've always done things a certain way so we start thinking there is no other way. Again, it's all about the mindset. The mindset of a person who is unable to do something differently might very well be something like "I can only do it this certain way and I can't change it". A tulpa rarely has a mindset like that, but when they do, they can't change shit either. But if they actually do try to do things differently... Things might very well be different.

I buy into this idea on the daily, believe me.
I think that this may be right, but it is more special than it seems to be. This method of simply believing, as a host, seems different than how it functions for a tulpa.
As the host, we do have certain expectations of reality that are ingrained. These are long-standing traditional beliefs we have learned and adopted as dogmas of reality. But I think there are different categories for learning these beliefs, and that the strongest one, that relates to the body and somatic senses, is the most difficult to overcome.
Beliefs as a result of intellect, such as societal norms and what have you, are easy to overcome, as the tulpa phenomena has shown (trumping the belief that you can't create a hallucination (imposition) while sober).

To use the tremors example again, the cause for the tremors itself is neurological. This creates a sensory, chemical impression in the host, that the host feels on a somatic level. The tulpa, never originally having a body with the capacity to be connected to the same neurological wiring, can overcome these sensations. While the host could spend a long time meditating to eventually achieve the same effect, the tulpa is able to do it quickly and without much effort because of this nature. Is this probable?

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You might be right, but I don't agree with you completely. It might not be entirely true that tulpas derive all their experiences from the host. Many tulpas report 'sensory sharing' or similar. And you did narrow down to sensory experience specifically, whereas anything related to the body could equally be a factor.
This is slightly confusing: in my definition, all reports of the body coming to the host are done so through senses, acknowledging the fact that there are more than the 5 standard senses. Proprioception is a sense that is commonly ignored, but it might be the most important one in regards to this discussion. What else related to the body is not obtained through the senses?

'Sensory sharing' during possession, or otherwise? I'm assuming that all sensory information that comes in is processed through the host first, even during possession, where both parties may be technically experiencing the sensation. However, maybe this is a false assumption. I wonder if there's any possibility of setting up some sort of test where this could be measured? Or just give me more information, as this is an important point.

Through posting what I was trying to say seems to be more clear to me now. Understanding that 'placebo' or pure belief is a real force in regards to the mind, how can tulpas relate to the mind and body differently than a host as a result of a disembodiment, and how does tulpa belief function in the mind differently than host belief?

I haven't read much about the experiences of hosts when they are switching, if anyone can provide links to PR or related information/research, that would help me out at the moment a lot.

Re: Can tulpa formation help understand the psychosomatic relation?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »
I'm probably slow on the uptake, but what's the deal with this article?
http://articles.tulpa.info/amadeus-exodus-a-tale-of-tulpa/
Seems related to what I'm talking about, not sure why I haven't seen it until now:

"I learned to use programmed servitors (and eventually do it myself through conditioning) to manipulate my senses while not forcing. While awake, I started effectively being able to control what information my brain processes. I could block out smells, or sounds. Eventually I could block out very specific chains of sound. Today I can selectively hear or not hear something. I can manipulate the taste of food. I can selectively change the way I perceive color or texture. I can choose to see the sky on fire and snowflakes in the wind."

All I can read from a lot of what he wrote was "symbolism". Which, again, can be very useful and isn't a bad thing and he does talk about how he learned to do it all himself in the end, using symbolism and other stuff as training wheels. Sorta related, my sense of smell is something I learned to block when I was very young out of necessity. Either my sense of smell is too good or I'm otherwise just weird, because many smells others can handle will make me throw up. So, gotta learn how to not smell if I want to keep my lunch inside me. These days it's actually more like my normal state, only smelling when I want to smell something. And who doesn't have selective hearing...

This isn't really related to anything but maybe you would like to hear it. I do a lot of weird shit these days and I had the opportunity to talk and do stuff with a professional dancer. She approached many things in a very... Well, I dunno, body-thinking way. She talked about how you could move by using your muscles and also how you could move using your bones. The muscles are heavier and you feel how they have to do a lot of work to achieve what you want your body to do, so it feels hard. But moving with your bones (sure, you actually use muscles but if you get what she means by it...) is much easier because they're so much lighter and it's almost effortless to move using them. Despite her being very much into thinking with her body, this obviously is some pretty deep mind shit. And you know what, it works. Think that you're moving with your bones and it does become easier.

To use the tremors example again, the cause for the tremors itself is neurological. This creates a sensory, chemical impression in the host, that the host feels on a somatic level. The tulpa, never originally having a body with the capacity to be connected to the same neurological wiring, can overcome these sensations. While the host could spend a long time meditating to eventually achieve the same effect, the tulpa is able to do it quickly and without much effort because of this nature. Is this probable?

The tremors thing is really interesting. I don't know anything about the brain itself, so I couldn't say why or how things happen here. I kind of suspect that if the tulpa were to start using more of the body's muscle memory built by the host, however, the tremors would come back. But it would have to actually be tested.

The entire thing should, really. This is some pretty good stuff that could help so many people if knowledge of it just was spread. The host has people who know of his condition and has proof of it as well, so them suddenly being able to move without tremors would surely catch the eye of someone who can actually run tests.

Sure, I can see why they might not want to do it. Real reasons. But then again, one possible reason for them not to want to do it is that they're actually lying... You can just never be sure, so take what everyone says with a grain of salt.


'Sensory sharing' during possession, or otherwise? I'm assuming that all sensory information that comes in is processed through the host first, even during possession, where both parties may be technically experiencing the sensation. However, maybe this is a false assumption. I wonder if there's any possibility of setting up some sort of test where this could be measured? Or just give me more information, as this is an important point.

This has some of my thoughts about possession. It's more about explaining switching and such, but what I want to talk to you about is how possession might very well have "levels" to it. A very low level of possession would be something where the tulpa could barely move or feel and the host would still perceive things just like it was them moving the body, with higher levels giving the tulpa much more control and feeling. I'd say sensory sharing always comes with possession when done right. But I can tell you that our usual possession ends with me feeling everything much less. Pain is really obvious because it's like the feeling just stops for me. And when it comes to things with really distinct tastes - something like orange juice - it's like the taste is just different. Like I'm missing few "layers" of taste. Can it be tested? I have no idea, no one really has any equipment at least.

Through posting what I was trying to say seems to be more clear to me now. Understanding that 'placebo' or pure belief is a real force in regards to the mind, how can tulpas relate to the mind and body differently than a host as a result of a disembodiment, and how does tulpa belief function in the mind differently than host belief?

Well, I wouldn't know for sure, but I can throw around theories. I'd say age and what we're used to. My tulpa is pretty unsure when it comes to the physical world and doing things in it, he's much less likely to try something crazy because he's afraid of something bad happening. He's not used to it and I have a good 20 years of experience over him, so I can't really blame him. He has done a lot more mind stuff over me despite my age, because I just haven't been very interested in it. He finds that to be his area and he's much bolder there, where I might have doubts because of my inexperience. But when he tells me not to worry about it, I can still do it. With practice if nothing else, but often I can do it pretty well without, even.

If I had like say, 20 years of tricking my mind experience? I'd definitely have the edge over a tupper, wouldn't I? So much more experience and I would know what to do. I wouldn't think I can't do it because I know I can, having done similar things in the past. A host who is really good at things like that might very well have more trust in their own skills and do better than their tulpa.

Re: Can tulpa formation help understand the psychosomatic relation?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2013, 02:46:36 PM »
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That does not mean that they couldn't have done it themselves, given practice. Although, you are right in mentioning the person with the tremors. It might be as you say, but it could also be that the means of possession cuts out the tremor somehow (I'm not familiar with the neurology).
That's what I'm interested in. It could be something the person would have done themselves; but, they didn't. So what is it about tulpas that makes them able to 'figure this out' while the host is unable to?
This is just speculation, but your tulpa is different to you; different abilities, viewpoints, and so on. So going by your suggestion, it is simply that the tulpa is, more or less coincidentally, able to overcome the tremors by ability that could equally have been inherent in the host. Or that a tulpa is more able to counteract these effects by nature unspecified (what you were going for, I guess).
I'm not sure about that, though. I think it's more to do with the mechanisms of possession and how they interact with the tremor - again, I'm not familiar with the neurology.



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You might be right, but I don't agree with you completely. It might not be entirely true that tulpas derive all their experiences from the host. Many tulpas report 'sensory sharing' or similar. And you did narrow down to sensory experience specifically, whereas anything related to the body could equally be a factor.
This is slightly confusing: in my definition, all reports of the body coming to the host are done so through senses, acknowledging the fact that there are more than the 5 standard senses. Proprioception is a sense that is commonly ignored, but it might be the most important one in regards to this discussion. What else related to the body is not obtained through the senses?
It's not about obtaining through the senses but through the host.
You said:
Until they learn how to switch, tulpas don't experience a psychosomatic sensation. They receive the impression of one from the host.
which means that (until switching), a tulpa won't have any sort of direct sensory connection to the body. I was giving accounts against that specifically, although the evidence isn't all that strong.

'Sensory sharing' during possession, or otherwise? I'm assuming that all sensory information that comes in is processed through the host first, even during possession, where both parties may be technically experiencing the sensation. However, maybe this is a false assumption. I wonder if there's any possibility of setting up some sort of test where this could be measured? Or just give me more information, as this is an important point.
Not specifically possession, though I suppose it would be most evident there. It is your assumption that is questionable, I suppose. As far as sensory processing goes, there's nothing to really suggest anything for or against it, to the best of my knowledge.

About a test, I suppose one would require the host to be 'zoned out' - visualising, really - with open eyes, so that the host is ignoring their senses while these senses are still available. Alternatively some other form of sensory ignoring might be more reliable, if available. I can't think of any. Given that, any tulpa could (attempt to) take information from the senses and relay it. Here I suppose some possession would be useful for reliability.
Anyway, if done correctly and one's tulpa could relay information from senses that the host is not paying attention to (while the host is in control of the body), that would disprove your assumption.