Author Topic: This makes two  (Read 213990 times)

Re: This makes tables
« Reply #285 on: July 26, 2014, 10:09:06 AM »
Well, it's nothing new that some people create tuppers with completely blank slates, so that the host and tupper have to build up trust with each other like two strangers that have some things in common and have strong potential for friendship but are nonetheless strangers. Butt, then again, that's what you "kind of" already did, although not my way with the intricate exploration and definition of the tupper's personality and thoughts. Take it or leave it.

Re: This makes two
« Reply #286 on: July 26, 2014, 05:36:50 PM »
Less real life talk, more tupper talk.

Re: This makes yep
« Reply #287 on: July 26, 2014, 06:22:52 PM »
Blanked
Oh, the "treating them as a stranger" part was just meant as a side comment, separate from the whole "exploring the thoughts of a tupper you want to think in a certain way and essentially defining a personality from that exploration" thing. Some people treat their newly-created tuppers as strangers. Doesn't mean you have to, or necessarily should. My suggestion was simply imagining a character that you vaguely know the personality of, and trying to put yourself in the shoes of that character and wonder how they think like, how that thinking makes them like certain things and dislike others, how their thinking leads them to prioritise this thing over that, and so on. A sort of introspection, except you're observing a character's thought patterns instead of your own.

And bear in mind I'm still talking about a new entity completely separate from Miriam and that other one. Just to make sure you don't misunderstand.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 02:31:13 PM by Sands »

Re: This drapes two
« Reply #288 on: July 27, 2014, 02:52:29 AM »
Seems like the negative emotions have become such a standard part of the process now, Miriam or not, and thus making it progressively more miserable to work on tupper stuff because you're reminded of your failures. I hope I'm wrong, but eh...

For once, maybe I can agree with Colonel's advice; the whole "do that fun thing again" tip. I just don't know how much it's going to actually help, and I don't like to give false hope, either. Maybe that's just due to my occasionally pessimistic nature.

Re: This makes two
« Reply #289 on: July 27, 2014, 06:09:25 AM »
When your entire mindset is "I can't do it", nothing will obviously get done. Until you can change from "I can't do it" or "nothing will work" to "I will try it and give it my best" and "I will force myself to change into something better for the sake of myself if I have to", then you might get somewhere. Negative Nancies just never get anything proper done when they're too busy wallowing in a pool of self pity and uselessness.

At this point, it's not just a tulpa you should be focusing on if you want one. You should focus on bettering your very being, because that's the real issue.

Re: This wakes two
« Reply #290 on: July 27, 2014, 04:16:23 PM »
I'd gladly describe to you how I decided to make fun out of my sessions back in June 2012 when I got tired of not being allowed to make responses for the tupplah. Butt, that fun was based on parroting, which in turn was based on going off on the wildest of tangents and making up oftentimes very cheerful responses for her that fit her personality, and I happened to know her personality well.

You? You barely know how you want Miriam, you can't be arsed to deeply explore how she'd think and thereby put yourself in her shoes, you find meditation and anything that involves sitting down and focusing mind-numbingly boring, and your repeated failed attempts at getting anything productive out of the narrative approach (which I tend to not recommend) have led you to form a rather negative mindset about tuppers in general at this point. If I didn't know any better, you want a fresh Tupla that completely acts on its own and didn't require any forethought served on a silver platter. You come off to me as a person that only has little imagination, especially because you can't visualise very well, so a crap tip like "Just, like, relax and let your imagination go and figure out how it wants to make the tupper on its own." is something I wouldn't want to give to you. But I know someone else who probably would under some circumstances. But enough about him.

A combination of a lack of imagination, dedication, focus, empathy, introspection, and all those other goodies is what has brought you to where you currently are. I'm used to blatantly advertising my method as being the easiest to pick up for those that failed with the narrative method, but in your case, even my suggestions probably aren't worth the trouble when you're at the level of not being able to make up a personality and thoughtful responses for it, or use your imagination for something more sophisticated than thinking "I want an imaginary girlfriend that's chill and fun... and... yeah."

Good game, guys. Had a good run. Was fun, y'all.

...

Well, anyway, in case you're still up for it, then you can always go ahead and make one of them extensive character sheets, building up her personality bit-by-bit by picking out a metric shittonne of traits and thereby know a lot more about her. Using those traits, you can then go ahead and use that as fuel for imagining how she would react in certain situations based on her traits, and sort of explore her personality like that, using the method I described in that earlier post; what would she be thinking in the situation, why would she do what she would do? You don't know? Ah, but you have a trait! That should tell you something. Seriously, it's not that hard. It's just like if you're thinking to yourself what you would do in a situation. Except it's not you but someone else, and in a different situation.

Here are some sample personality traits to get you started, shamelessly ripped off from Dane. Optionally, and preferably, you should write some short sentences for as many traits as possible about how the trait in question exactly influences and defines her, and not just "She's chill... yep, that's it."

Energetic, laid back, brave, meek, sarcastic, creative, dull, forgetful, retentive, hardworking, lazy, optimistic, realist, cynical, opportunist, social, introverted, easily amused, often bored, dependable, open minded, sceptical, articulate, simple, strong-willed, confident, friendly, protective, loyal, honest, passionate, resourceful, independent, outgoing, immature, mature, intelligent, comical, logical, consistent, a leader, motivated, not regretful, not gullible, helpful, patient, empathetic, introspective, talkative, thoughtful, mischievous, fierce, hardy, outdoorsy, adaptable, content, reasonable, coordinated, charming, perceptive, observant, trustworthy, quiet, secretive, rebellious, witty, rambunctious, uplifting, faithful, atheist, critical, materialistic, silly, inclusive, agreeable, blunt, sane, accepting, selfless, stoic, meticulous, mean-spirited, snide, handy, motivated.

And if you can't think up situations to imagine her in, just think back on what you've done recently in your life; what would she have done if she were you? Or, perhaps, what would she have done in some of those roleplays? That's at least something if you can't think up anything. There you go. Another tl;dr post.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 04:19:33 PM by Fede »

Re: This makes two
« Reply #291 on: July 27, 2014, 05:44:48 PM »
Maybe you want to read through this thread to find the fun parts, if you want to know them. You've listed that shit down here, so why not use it? That's one of the reasons why I suggest people log their progress, so that they can look back.

And I assume your trait thing is for Fede, so I'll let him respond to that as you're waiting for ~~his method~~ and shit here. I'm going to assume that you're already overthinking it and believe that it's harder than it really is, so that you're already putting yourself down and making everything needlessly hard. But what do I know, it's Fede method time.

Quote
So if someone knows how to make this something I'd feel better doing over reading, or sleeping, or vidya games, do tell.

Considering how all of those are you enjoying someone else creating things for you (dreaming rarely is conscious unless you're lucid dreaming, after all) without you having to spend any effort, I guess it might be clear what you enjoy doing and that's not actually doing any work for your entertainment. Creating a tupper is going to have to involve you doing something creative yourself though, sorry.

Re: This steaks two
« Reply #292 on: July 28, 2014, 03:02:36 AM »
And I assume your trait thing is for Fede, so I'll let him respond to that as you're waiting for ~~his method~~ and shit here. I'm going to assume that you're already overthinking it and believe that it's harder than it really is, so that you're already putting yourself down and making everything needlessly hard. But what do I know, it's Fede method time.

You know it. I'm thinking it's more due to me typing up tl;dr posts to Enny about my method so I'm sure he understands what I mean completely, even though it's kinda failing on that front, partially due to the length of the posts and partially due to Enny himself. But here I am, still trying.

Quote
So if someone knows how to make this something I'd feel better doing over reading, or sleeping, or vidya games, do tell.

Considering how all of those are you enjoying someone else creating things for you (dreaming rarely is conscious unless you're lucid dreaming, after all) without you having to spend any effort, I guess it might be clear what you enjoy doing and that's not actually doing any work for your entertainment. Creating a tupper is going to have to involve you doing something creative yourself though, sorry.

This is very true.

Blanked

How exactly you use the traits is up to yourself, and I was hoping you'd be a little imaginative and experimental in that area. Moreover, you didn't type a single sentence for any of the traits. You just jotted down a bunch of one-word traits, seemingly without any analysis of how they specifically apply to this particular personality. You're not shopping for a tupper. This is not building a computer or pizza online (okay, that was a bad analogy). Although it was optional, I was hoping you'd write at least one sentence. Butt, here goes.

Consider the following: we're different people wherever we go. Sometimes we're only slightly different from what we are in the dark, and sometimes very different from that. It depends on whom we're talking to. Thanks to this, you can go ahead and just choose a group of traits (or even just one trait) and imagine situations where the trait(s) in question would be dominant in the tupper's demeanour. Of course, it's preferable that you keep as many traits as possible in mind, but I know this isn't too easy for you to do, hence why I'm suggesting here that you do them in segments or just one-by-one. Eventually, when you've done this for a while, it becomes easier over time to keep more of them in mind.

Allow me to provide examples. For the laid-back trait, I'd think up some situation where that trait in the tupper would be dominant. I guess one situation where this would be dominant is where the tupper is relaxing with some friends, literally laid-back on some chair, talking casually about some random subject. The subject doesn't have to be anything important. There doesn't even have to be any audio in the scene to begin with. As long as the trait is exhibited and you're taking good note of how the tulip behaves when that trait is dominant, it's fine. No, you're not taking note of some behaviour that happens magically out of thin air without any effort from your side whatsoever. You're taking note of something you're wilfully parroting. Or puppeteering, or whatever.

In another case, perhaps I'd like to combine several traits, as mentioned earlier. I'll just pick humourous and compassionate. So like, I'd just go ahead and imagine the tupper trying to cheer up someone sad with a warmhearted joke. Again, since there doesn't have to be any audio or anything like that involved in the scene, I don't actually have to think up thoughtful lines; I can just focus on the emotion of the combined traits and have it look like the people in the scene are communicating, even though I'd only vaguely know what they'd be talking about. And if emotions are too difficult, then I don't what the fuck to suggest. We're only doing this so we can get to know how the tupper would react and behave in certain situations. Thus, making up thoughtful lines - assuming you'll follow through with Fede's Method� - is something that can wait for later when you're comfortable enough with the personality to make up lines and start parroting for real.

That was just a couple of examples. Surely you have the brains to think up your own instead of always being so "help me guys I can't think of anything at all, my imagination blows, I have no ideas whatsoever, what do I do, please simplify" in your posts.

Also, are you still unable to use Eye-Bo in any way? And did you ever "rediscover" something useful from my guide? Blinking (which the guide mentions) is a fine substitute if you're too embarrassed or something to use Eye-Bo thanks to the frail privacy in your home.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 02:32:22 PM by Sands »

Re: This makes two
« Reply #293 on: July 28, 2014, 01:13:59 PM »
If you are going this heavy personality route except you're having trouble creating them/characters in the first place, some Google searching for character writing tips/character development/whatever could also help you. There can be some really good tips out there, to help writers. Not exactly tupper stuff, but it could help you as it's rather similar.

There's also these 100 questions a fully developed character should easily answer to (if appliable), though a tulpa that is still in the creation phase couldn't really answer to all of them because of lack of experience. And I don't approve of trying to create false backgrounds for tuppers. At least parts 1 to 3 and part 7 are all more or less skippable. There's a few you might be able to answer yourself, but not all. Even the other ones can be a bit tricky, but some of those questions can make you think what kind of a personality someone would have. But this list can be very useful when creating roleplaying characters as they are something that should have a created background and stuff. So hey, taking a look could potentially help you with creating tupper personalities, but it would definitely help you with creating better roleplaying characters.

And seriously, if you start being all "but that's too many questions/too much reading/too haaaaaaard" then come on. Push yourself a little, you'll never develop any skills if you never push yourself out of your comfort zones. You don't have to use it at all, but don't let "too haaaaard" be the reason.

Re: This makes thirteen billion
« Reply #294 on: July 28, 2014, 05:16:02 PM »
And seriously, if you start being all "but that's too many questions/too much reading/too haaaaaaard" then come on. Push yourself a little, you'll never develop any skills if you never push yourself out of your comfort zones. You don't have to use it at all, but don't let "too haaaaard" be the reason.

This.

And as an afterthought, would it be better to speak to parroted Tupper even before I fully understand the traits? In between sessions and all that, or would I probably wanna have a better grasp on how she would act..?

I'd rather you get to know the personality first. But most of all, if you're going to follow through with my method, you need to break away from that "Hey, I'm gonna say something to you, I hope you can hear me, bla bla bla..." stuff. Not that I think that's what you're really saying and it's probably very different from the typical narration you've always done. Either way, do not talk to the tupper as if they can't hear you or is some "mysterious entity" far away off in mindland. Get rid of the narration mindset you've had with you for the past I don't know how many months. With my method that I've extensively described in those earlier posts, you're doing either of the following:
  • Imagining the tupper in some situation with a specific emotion being dominant, optionally while narrating about what the tupper is doing, why they're doing it, and so on. You're not narrating about yourself like you've always done. That is not what this is.
  • Directly interacting with the tupper through conversation, in which case you'd make up lines for them and have them actually think about stuff instead of just creating immediate, generic yes/no/I guess/maybe responses.
If you're going to "talk to her between sessions", it should be actual conversation between the two of you. But, since you're at a way too early point to have an effective grasp of her personality to be able to say "Man, she would so do that." or "That's so her." (I'm assuming it's a female), then stick to the trait emotion scene imagining exercise for now, since you apparently need very specific instructions and don't seem to experiment very much or find out stuff yourself by trying many new things. Experimentation is one of the most important things in the tupper business, you know, but I guess a thousand posts later from Colonel and me aren't enough to make you understand that.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:17:36 AM by Fede »

Daecher

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Re: This makes two
« Reply #295 on: July 31, 2014, 03:37:46 PM »
Alright, I've read through this thread a couple times- not to the letter, but roughly- and I'd like to toss my two cents in, if Enny will hear it. I've got a hell of a lot less experience than Sands or Fede, but I might be able to relate to your problems a bit more in that I've only recently overcome them (god forbid I don't acknowledge the effort of these two to help you). All of you, please forgive me if what I say has been said again and again before in the thread already.


While I support the idea that you should "start over" with your tulpa, as previously mentioned, I understand that starting over from scratch would feel like a waste of time and energy (and it does take significant amounts of energy at first). I'll offer an alternate proposal: sit down with your tulpa and have a heart-to-heart. Let them know that you want to set down a foundation for your relationship. Whether you think they can hear you or not, I suggest coming to this meeting of minds with two goals: giving them a sense independence, and not preparing their future for them.

Let me clarify that I mean "not preparing" as not trying to create every single facet of a tulpa from the get-go. When I started out and read up on people starting to create their own tulpa, I saw post after post after post asking "what do I do for this" or "what should they be like in this particular aspect," with little to no progress being made. I found it easier to use somewhat general descriptions for what my tulpa would be like, and let it decide from then on how it would develop. My first narration session was a down-to-earth confession, basically. I told my tulpa why I created it, how I wanted it to affect me, and what I expected from it in the future. Likewise, I told it what I would do for it in return, and what I wanted for its future. Luna was made with the intent of being considerate, compassionate, independent, and understanding- I had no perspective of a name, gender, voice, or anything like that at the time of her creation (or Haya's, for that matter), only the hope that she would grow from a basic set of traits.

I understand that you don't want to just ditch your tulpa's current personality in favor of starting over. Instead, I recommend addressing your tulpa as it is, and talk to her (I'm assuming from here on out Miriam is female) about what it means for you to have a tulpa. Let her know why you made her, what she means to you, etc., until you feel confident that it has at least a basic understanding of how you feel. You should also, at the very least, give her some acknowledgement that you have some respect for her opinion-to-be, and that while neither of you have a solid definition of who she is as a tulpa, that she has some decision in the matter. You're more than welcome to establish a form, voice, and the specifics of her personality from the start- and I don't think she'll fault you for having done so already- but I believe that it's important to set a connection that your tulpa can work from on their own without your focus.

One thing to keep in mind with this mindset of giving your tulpa a little independence early on is that you might have to put more effort into your regular sessions than you would with a "pre-made" tulpa. My solution to narrating was thinking to my tulpa (I didn't feel comfortable talking out loud) about everyday things; my walk to classes each day, enjoying nature, my family and past, my feelings, and my hobbies were great subjects to narrate to her about. The whole time, I had the ideas about vocality and other tulp-ish abilities in my head, but I pushed them away to try and lead into her abilities, rather than make things happen - no offense to Fede and his parroting method, I'm only speaking in terms of what worked for me. I reminded myself whenever I felt depressed or doubtful that my tulpa was made to be understanding, and that it would take matters into its own hands/hooves/etc. when it was ready, outside of my influence. I only had to trust them and support them by being patient.

Speaking of patience, one of the biggest suggestions I can make is that she needs time to grow. The advice I've seen given to you can help, but you should work through each part smoothly and consistently. Start at step one, work through it until you feel mildly proficient, and then move on, making sure to touch up on the basics now and again. I've observed from your feedback from reading and attempting these pieces of advice that patience (or lack thereof) makes a large contribution to your progress. I went through a long period of forcing at random times during the week, for up to two hours at a time, and others do just twenty to thirty minutes at a time, multiple times a day/week. I suggest not measuring your growth by time, but by what you feel you've done. You don't have to be able to "know" what you've done, just know that you've spent a little more time with your tulpa than you did before you started.

A huge milestone for anyone with a tulpa is communication. While I don't know an exact method of transferring a tulpa from silence to vocality, both of mine found a way of making themselves known through "head pressures," making my ears ring whenever I was narrating or in response to it. This is by no means a goal you should set your tulpa to, but I've learned that they can be rather creative (if not spontaneous) in their means of communication. When you narrate to her, just keep in mind that she might be actively listening, not paying attention, or even trying to get your attention without you realizing it. Part of the mentality is not consciously trying to hear or feel your tulpa, just letting it do its own thing. My tulpas went from silence to pressures to vocality in weeks, but your tulpa is not one of my tulpas; yours may already be ready to communicate for herself and she might be waiting patiently for you to allow her to speak without you putting the words in her mouth, or she might just be a little shy and doesn't know how you want her to sound/act. It's pretty hard to tell from this stage, but I find it helpful to keep a level head and remind your tulpa that you want to hear or feel her- whether you actually can or not- in the hope that she will be more confident in her attempts to acknowledge you in a way you can understand. Thinking of it reminds me of the transition between riding a bike with training wheels and without; a median between encouraging her and helping her along is needed to progress.

I'd like to give you advice on tulpa forms and visualization as well, but that's one of my weakest facets of forcing. What I can tell you is that a tulpa's form is just that- its form. I've learned that it can grow and change like your tulpa does, and is as permanent as the two of you decide it should be. Visualization is a difficult task to handle, but my suggestion is researching paracosms, a.k.a Wonderlands. Over time, I've found that having a simple, easy-to-remember place where you can relax and not worry about the outside world makes problems with forcing much easier to go through. While I haven't gotten so far as to actually see any of the Wonderlands I've made, the sense that I'm there is relaxing in and of itself.

If there's anything that I can hope you will take from this wall of text, it's that, while subconscious thinking is at the very heart of tulpas and forcing, conscious thinking has just as much of an effect on your progress. If you truly believe that you don't know that your tulpa is there and/or can even hear you, then chances are that you won't get much farther than you have up until this point. If you're willing to question your first instinct and try to let your just tulpa be while you try to connect with her (even though you can't sense her at all, with or without focus), your brain will likely try to fill in the gaps you aren't able to yourself. It's not a matter of blindly believing, but being willing to accept that there are steps in the process you cannot fully control yet.

I feel, at this point, I've beaten you with my "just slow your roll, let your tupper do tupper things, and let your brain do the rest" just enough to get you thinking, maybe. It's hard to wrap one's mind around "Act without acting, think without thinking," but remember that it will all be worth it in the end. Remind your tulpa of this, and remind yourself. There will come a time where you might not be able to remind yourself, but your tulpa will eventually be able to do it for you, if you let them.


TLDR; "Fuck the two cents part, this is a wall of text." Go back the fuck up and read, I put some effort into this post to try and give you another perspective.

Feel free to tear my shit up or tell me I'm your personal god, whatever works for you.
"Insane" is a just a word. There are no words for this.

Re: This penises two
« Reply #296 on: August 05, 2014, 01:15:59 PM »
Way to go, Daker. You scared him off.

MegaBusta

Re: This makes two
« Reply #297 on: August 05, 2014, 02:47:44 PM »
What a shame.

Daecher

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Re: This makes two
« Reply #298 on: August 06, 2014, 01:41:54 PM »
Way to go, Daker. You scared him off.

Damn. I thought I'd at least get a "you dun know wot ur talkin bout m8."
"Insane" is a just a word. There are no words for this.

Re: This penis two
« Reply #299 on: August 06, 2014, 04:07:55 PM »
None of us know what we're talking about. The existence of tuppers is open to interpretation.