I guess I really want to point you in the direction of this. I think you're just another of those victims who were told to blindly believe no matter what and it later on bit them in the ass. I can't say you can really be blamed when it was something spread by others. Always thought it was a bad way of forcing.

Yeah we did talk a lot some time ago, can't remember all of it though you probably remember it better. You're damn right you'll be spanked.

Well, you gotta accept the fact that if you want to get there, you are going to have to work. I do suggest that you have short sessions so you can easily leave, sit down and chill with the tulpa without having to procrastinate and be all ugggh such a chore, I'd rather be online for five more minutes. Procrastination is a bitch, but you can only really stop it by starting to do whatever it was that you had to do. You have to realize that.

Though of course forcing doesn't have to be a chore. I don't know what you find enjoyable, so I can't really help there. I can give you some ideas for what to do, though. Maybe.

You say that your visualization sucks and that you have no idea what to talk about when narrating. Narration is a super important tool in tulpaforcing so of course this is a skill you have to learn and it will definitely help with building that sentience. One-sided conversations are hard, yeah, not much to go with. But hey, how about you either look at wonderland clouds if you want to practice visualization too or just go outside to look at real clouds. Or look at videos of clouds of something. It's easy to see shapes in the clouds, so you could use them to give you ideas. That one cloud looks like a duck? Tell her all you know about ducks. Tell her what you think about them and maybe ask her what she thinks about them. Give her some time to answer, in case she does. Listen, but not just with your ears. A response from a non-vocal and even a vocal tulpa could come in many different forms. Oh, and if you look at wonderland clouds, you won't know if the clouds have been affected by your tulpa or not, so you could possibly be allowing her to ask you questions without her having to be able to talk or you questioning if it was omg really her, because it doesn't matter. Clouds, see, talk. If it was her, it doesn't matter, because you're talking about what you see anyways. If she asked you, you answered even if you didn't think it came from her.

Visualization, stare at her some more. I think you were the guy who felt weird with staring at a chick, but come on. If she was annoyed with it, she'd let you know. An excellent way to bait possible reactions, huh? Maybe at some point you'd like to do some imposition-lite, too. I often went outside when Roswell was young and "took" him with me by imposing. I didn't see him or anything, sometimes felt. Either his presence or touch, but it didn't matter. I could hold his hand and lead him, I could show him things and talk about them. In my mind of course because I don't want to show my power level. I would go shopping with him and explain things, also asking him questions now and then. It was an excellent way to make him a part of my life and also narrate and get ideas for what to talk about.

I think I did suggest you to try to learn to visualize better, as an image you can follow might help you see responses from your tulpa before you get actual words out of her. I still think it's a good idea, but you can easily work on narration and visualization (and maybe that imposition-lite, huh?) on different days so it doesn't get too boring and samey. Maybe you want to start with visualizing something you can and/or really want to, so you get started and get the hang of it. If you can visualize one thing, you'll be able to visualize, well, everything. Trust me on that.

I said this once but I'll say it again to stress it. Don't just listen for a response with your ears. You might be able to see or just plain feel it. They might not be words, but it can be a response and you definitely can get somewhere with it.

This won't help with everything and I probably said many things I already said in the past that didn't help you at all, but hey. Words. See if they help you at all.

Hah, yeah, the story about blindly believing. It wasn't about you, but if you see it being pretty similar to what you went through... I think that's proof that blindly believing isn't the best way to do this, huh? It's not a single case that had it backfire, it's more than one person.

And Sands, your post here is under the assumption that I know the potential responses are just me parroting, but the post you linked to assumes that I'm getting responses that I'm unsure of. Honestly, I kind of don't know how people can wonder if they're parroting or not; if they can't just wait and see if they hear/feel a response, and instead they have to consciously do something that results in their tulpa saying something (but only when the host does that thing), isn't that parroting? Sure, the case could be made that you're actively listening for a response rather than creating one yourself, but to me that just feels like another excuse that was made up to support the "believe everything" mindset. I feel like those are the types of responses you're talking about in the linked thread (though correct me if I'm wrong), whereas your post here acts as guidance to hearing actual alien responses, rather than actively seeking out those uncertain responses like I had been doing until I made the decision to avoid parroting. Both your post here and the one you linked seem like very sound advice to me, but they seem to contradict each other (either that or I'm just misinterpreting everything).

Yeah, I don't really see where your first sentence comes from. I mean, I'm not a good writer so it's very easily for me to write one thing and mean something else, so if something I said felt like it said something else and you can show it to me, I'll read it and tell you what I actually meant. Sorry if I didn't really word myself correctly but I guess I'll write some more words in case they help explain a few things. Warning this is massive tl;dr and woflo is going to hate me for this, help. I hope you will be able to get to the end, though. Won't blame you if you don't.

Sure, it's obvious when you parrot your tulpa. You make them say things, ta-dah. But it's still a very common question. Especially early on, it was a constant battle of making the tulpa prove themselves to have done that before you bought any of it and unless it was an auditory hallucination that was completely alien, your tulpa didn't say it and it was just you parroting them. That's why I felt it was really important to talk about whether or not it is you tulpa and why it just doesn't matter early on when you are starting out.

Is listening parroting? I'd say it's not. I can tell you some things I've experienced when working on a tulpa and I can also tell you stuff others have told me, so believe what you want. A young tulpa is rarely strong. Their voice is faint and difficult to hear. How do you expect your young and weak tulpa to overpower all your other thoughts so they can be heard? Besides, how would they answer when you're already talking? That would be kinda rude.

I tell people to stop and listen because it was a problem with me. I was talking to him, telling him stuff and asking him questions... Except I never stopped to let him answer. It didn't even matter to me if he did or didn't, I just talked. I don't think "he's not going to answer, so why bother waiting for it?" is the best mindset when working with tulpas and trying to get them vocal. You're training yourself to have something else responding to you in your mind and in my case, it definitely was more about learning how to listen. Guess what? Later on I did notice that Roswell could give me signs of his answer. Not actual words, those came much later, but all kinds of other feelings I found I couldn't quite replicate perfectly myself, so they at least were something I could go with. Did I believe yet? I didn't, but I was being pretty stupid when I wasn't waiting for a possible response when I could get some if I just gave him a few seconds to actually respond. Surely I could've had a vocal tulpa much earlier if I just wasn't in such a hurry to just talk and talk.

So why does it help when I let him respond and I don't even fully believe it was my tulpa? Narration. Like you said, it's difficult to have a one-sided conversation. There's only so much I can talk about myself and the questions I ask my tulpa are pretty worthless if I don't even try waiting. So, let's say I do get a response of some sort. Maybe it's an obvious yes or no, or maybe it's something else. Just a feeling. Maybe you are talking about those ducks and suddenly you get the feeling of "let's talk about dogs instead". No words, mind you, just a feeling, a hunch. Was it you or your tulpa? It doesn't matter. Start talking about dogs. If it was you, well, you probably were running out of duck things to say and if you weren't, you can talk about ducks again later. You didn't push it on your tulpa in case it wasn't them. If it was your tulpa, you actually followed what they said. They saw they got noticed and it surely will make them feel better and will train you to be able to pick up all kinds of responses. You don't have to believe, so it's not a blindly believe everything mindset. You just follow it if the idea you got sounds good. Don't follow stupid ideas, of course. Or talk about why the idea is stupid.

My tulpa would move once he had a form. At first I had a problem with keeping everything still, but then I managed to relax and just let things happen in my imagination. I'm the kind of a person who has a really good control over their imagination, so this included learning how to not be such a control freak. So, anyways, tulpa would move. Would I believe it was the tulpa? I didn't. I didn't care, it was or wasn't. At one point though, I just had to say that hey, you know, you've surprised me so many times that either it's you or I'm good at lying to myself. I don't really care what it is, so I'll just go with "it's you". So I did.

I did the same to many other kinds of responses, as well. I didn't doubt, but I didn't believe. I let it come and once it started to look more and more like it wasn't me, I could allow myself to start actually trusting it. Him getting vocal was the same. Do you think I got some omg alien sound out of nowhere? No, sure as hell I didn't. Actually let's go back a bit and I'll remind you that back when I heard about tulpas, what you were supposed to get from the tulpa would be this alien voice that is totally like some other person's voice. Strong, clear, obvious. That's one of the reasons why both of the early guides said that it will take hundreds of hours of forcing to get a vocal tulpa, because actually getting those hallucinations when you're in an aware state is pretty difficult. Luckily for us though, "mindvoice" started to become a thing after vocal tulpas chewed at their hosts for not fucking listening to them when they tried to get their attention. We learned to listen with other things than just our ears.

So, anyways, I got a response after tons of work and symbolism and shit to make us able to do it. Did I believe it? No. If it was him, it was. If it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't some special moment for me where I finally knew I had a sapient tulpa (that actually came before vocality) that could speak. But, I allowed it to happen. Later on I started thinking. You know, it was pretty similar to me, so maybe it was me. But it also was different. It was slower, the speech pattern wasn't identical, the words he used weren't ones I'd use. It came from a different spot in my head - I know, sounds weird but it makes sense to me - and well, the voice that seemed similar to my own opposed some things I felt really strongly about. Hell, should I still disbelieve all that? I could, but whatever it was, I had a voice in my head that had opinions of its own. That's tulpa enough for me, so I let it be. I definitely did have to stop and let him talk seeing that he was super slow and pretty quiet, but it only got better from there as we practiced and talked more. And then we could have actual conversations.

Could you wait for the totally alien hallucination? Maybe. But it's not that easy to get those hallucinations. It would take a ton of work and then you probably would doubt that too, because you realized you can cause hallucinations yourself. Usually, what the tulpa can do, you can do. Sometimes it might take some practice to be able to do it just right, but you're going to be able to get pretty close in many cases...

Anyways, even now when I'm really into something, it's really hard to get me a message across. Roswell has taken to just giving me a short message of yo slow down, I wanna talk. Which I then do and he says what he wanted to say when I'm not busy with something else. Don't know about you, but I basically think in a mindvoice all the time. My head is a really busy and loud place, so it's not too easy to get anything in, especially if you want me to notice it. A clever tulpa tries many forms of communication and sees which ones they can do and which ones you actually hear. If you block all their possible methods of communicating, well, you're not going to be doing too well.

A good state for listening is a relaxed one. I didn't use to understand what it meant when others talked about it, but I do now. You let your thoughts just flow freely without trying to stop them, as you might very well stop a response. You're not trying to fill your head with thoughts, or they will drown everything. Just let them go. If you hear something, you don't have to believe if you're skeptical. It's good material for narration - or maybe you could even see if you can hold a conversation with the voice. All good material for later narration, when you talk about what you experienced to your tulpa and ask them if they were there. Even if you don't hear anything, it's not a bad thing. Sometimes it's good to slow down and just listen to what's going on in your head.

Fede's stuff might help you with visualization, but I have never tried it myself. At least not long enough to see if it would help, but you did report that Eye-Bo helped. I guess when you talk to me and Fede, you gotta keep in mind that I think tulpas are sapient even though I have no proof of it, while Fede thinks that they're not even though he has no proof of it. Do I believe in my own tulpa these days? I do. Does he believe in his tulpas? I think he does. And I probably got his exact view wrong because it's hard to explain in one sentence, but our views are pretty different. Do what you think is the best.

I know I'm just doing 90% of the same thing I was doing before, but the thing is that I'm pretty sure the method was working just fine, I just worried way too much over it. You guys have actually been of immense help here; I kind of doubted that I'd ever know what to do as far as tulpaforcing goes, but now I feel like I understand and I'm free to go back to actually forcing and doing things and having fun with it.

I do get what you guys are saying, though, or at least I think I do. You're trying to make sure the same thing that happened to me last time doesn't happen again as a result of worrying over the authenticity of responses, right? That's probably a legitimate concern, but the responses are going to feel more and more authentic as time goes on, aren't they? The "alien voice" stage of vocality is what I'm striving for, but now I know that I need to be patient until it gets to that point. So unless it ends up taking so long that it feels like progress is never going to be made, I think I should be fine. And, yes, I know you guys are trying to tell me to stop caring about the authenticity at all so that bad things won't happen if it does end up taking that long, but now I know not to just give up if that ends up happening. Sure, I might make a thread being like "why isn't my tulpa's vocality improving fasterrrrr" if it starts to feel hopeless, but I'm not going to do the same thing I did last time.

I know I'm probably still missing the point here, but I can't help it. "Stubborn" is indeed very accurate when describing me. I dunno, I just can't personally see much of a problem here. I know there's probably a few of them, but I'm blind to them. Sorry.

... Wait, no. I'm reading everything I just typed and I think I'm starting to get it, actually. You're telling me that I'm focusing too much over an arbitrary indicator of tulpa realness (the alien voice feeling) when I shouldn't worry about making progress at all and instead just have fun with it, with the progress coming naturally in the background. Or something close to that, anyway. Right? Because I think I understand that now. I can't say whether or not I'll actually have that philosophy when tulpaforcing, though; I agree that it's for the best, but I'm just too personally obsessed with making progress. I think it's a low enough level of obsession that I SHOULD be mostly ok, though. And I'll try to stop worrying since I know it's for the best, even if I don't do that good a job at it.

In the case of guided possession, the possession itself is a collaborative effort between you and the tupper where you aim the limbs and the tupper sends impulses that gradually become stronger. Parallel processing, at least at some level, is pretty much a requisite.

What you do is you take a limb like, say, your hand, and tell your tupper to bend one of the fingers. Assuming your tupper is cooperative, you'll either feel a slightly tickling impulse or otherwise some sort of "urge" to bend the finger. What you do here is amplify the force of that impulse. Don't overdo it; just amplify it enough to bend the finger a bit. You're not supposed to take control of the finger or willingly bend it the way you normally would when not practicing possession. The impulse is supposed to be the driving force. As you do this more and more over time, you won't have to amplify the force of the impulses as much and the tupper will be able to handle the stuff by itself. Eventually, you can train things like the tupper sending impulses to aim the limbs so you won't have to do that, either.

This is what I do, and it works. I mostly practice this while playing games or something, because that's where I can notice the differences between me and my tulpa. What made me sure of this working were the few times where I wasn't doing anything to move my limbs at all (either not focusing on them or even focusing on something other than the game) and they were still moving. It was kinda freaky, especially since the first time it actually cost me some effort to make my arms do what I was telling them to do, but also a great sign of progress. Fede may over-advertise his methods sometimes but I did similar things and they work for me.

I agree with what's been said about worrying or expecting some milestone thing to happen being pointless. I believe that, like people, tuppers grow over time, and especially if you're always keeping track of said growth you won't notice much difference from before unless you actually keep track of your progress from day 1 and read back after, say, 6 months or so.

You're trying to make sure the same thing that happened to me last time doesn't happen again as a result of worrying over the authenticity of responses, right? That's probably a legitimate concern, but the responses are going to feel more and more authentic as time goes on, aren't they?

Define "authentic". I noticed people often expect something extremely unnatural and foreign
from their tulpa, while they're still a part of your brain. By the time you'll be doing aural imposition, you'll probably be so used to their mindvoice that only the fact you're hallucinating a voice will feel strange, not the responses themselves. Expecting them to feel too foreign will only result in doubt and disappointment, for both you and your tulpa, at least the way I see it.

It's like Fede said man, just roll with it and see what happens. If you keep practicing, you'll eventually make progress - I believe that's something we all can agree on.

You're telling me that I'm focusing too much over an arbitrary indicator of tulpa realness (the alien voice feeling) when I shouldn't worry about making progress at all and instead just have fun with it, with the progress coming naturally in the background.

I wrote something about this in another thread.

I feel as though proving the tulpa's sentience seems to be more of a point of focus of tulpaforcers than actually spending time with them and having fun, which is why we make them in the first place, right? If you're gonna treat them as some scientific experiment, you might as well not make them. Tulpas are your friends, not lab rats. I don't disagree with a little experimentation to sate the curiosity, but your friendship with them should always come first, and all the other sciency progress crap second.