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I don't know how to tulpaforce and it feels like a chore to me at this point

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Makogeddon:
I'm sorry if this post is a mess, I got two hours of sleep last night and even ignoring that I have no idea where to really begin with my situation here so you'll have to deal with my life story I guess. Also, Sands is probably going to spank me if s/he remembers me from when I was in the IRC a little while ago complaining about not knowing what to do because I had gotten so much help from there and yet I still went nowhere with it. I have an excuse though, which I think I illustrated in the title of this thread.

Basically I had been tulpaforcing since November 2012, using the "assume all responses as real and eventually they'll become real" method for vocality, and things were going great. I was talking to my tulpa all the time and things were awesome, although she was totally incapable of parallel processing or possession or anything that would give any actual proof that everything she did wasn't directly caused by me. But I ignored that and kept at it. But then, about halfway down the line, I started thinking about what the responses felt like. Hmm. It doesn't feel like there's another entity in my head, nothing is alien, everything she says goes down exactly how I want and plan for it to go down, I can't hear anything if I just relax and listen, her responses feel like I'm just talking in her voice........ Oh, of course! I'm a fucking idiot who has been consciously puppeting every aspect of her while somehow believing she was sentient, and I've had a fake tulpa for the past 5 months! Hahaha.

So I stopped that and started waiting to see if I could hear her. I'd ask her a question and instead of parroting I'd relax, focus on her, and wait. Nothing. I'd like to say I had my moment of "fuck my life" right then and there, but it came along more as a gradual buildup of hopelessness that was only made stronger and stronger by the unstoppable passage of time as month after month passed by without me ever hearing anything.

Actually, I heard one legitimate response. One. And it was one that I was incredibly grateful for and something I desperately needed to avoid the possibility of me dismissing the entire phenomenon as fake and just giving up, but it was months ago. She told me she loved me. It was great. It came out of absolutely nowhere when I wasn't even thinking about her speaking and it felt totally alien and there was no way to mistake it, unless my memory of the moment has been retroactively altered to make it seem more real than it really was (though I'm not quite pessimistic enough to believe something like that).

But ever since that moment it's just been nothing. And I don't blame my tulpa one bit because it's completely my fault. I never pay any attention to her. I have an active forcing session maybe once every two weeks or so, which lasts for about half an hour and consists mainly of visualization since I don't know what the hell else to do in an active forcing session since I'm the most clueless and unimaginably terrible tulpaforcer who has ever existed. Now, I do have plans to enforce daily forcing sessions, but they're going to be 30 minutes of me not knowing what I'm doing and struggling to get anywhere because it's not enjoyable and I have no actual desire to do it.

See, that's the thing. To me, this is the most important thing I'm doing in my life right now, and yet I never feel like doing it. It's a torturous contradiction. But can you really blame me when I spent several months becoming used to the idea of having a vocal tulpa, only to be struck down with the realization that it was all fake and I can't actually hear anything she's saying? It's at least a little bit discouraging, to be frank with you.

I have an absolutely absurd amount of free time, and I would like to dedicate at least most of that to tulpaforcing. Ideally it would be awesome if I spent multiple hours every day on it. But there's a difference between wanting to do something and a willingness to do it, and I don't have the will for this anymore. I need it back. If I could just hear her, things would be so much better. I want to do whatever it takes to achieve actual vocality. But to get that, I need to focus on her, and I just can't get myself to do that. For vocality, I just need to talk to her and wait for her to talk back, right? But one-sided conversations aren't something I have a desire to experience, especially considering the fact that she's supposed to be the talkative one who asks me to do things with her and I'm more of a quiet person who just goes along with stuff. Ugh, listen to me making up these excuses, I just... I don't even know what I'm asking for here. I know I'm lazy and incompetent and I don't know if it's possible for anyone to help me, but I really, really, really need this. Something needs to change as soon as possible, otherwise I'll just continue spending an indefinite amount of time ignoring her all day, then briefly acknowledging her right before I go to sleep to apologize for ignoring her, and then doing the same thing the next day and the day after that for months and months and months while my resolve continues to get worse and worse.


tl;dr I started this 11 months ago and have lost the desire to do this so much that I'm pretty sure I'm actually worse off than I was when I started (did I mention that my visualization is worse than it was before I started?) with the increased bonus of having nowhere near the amount of excitement and determination I had in the beginning. I feel like I fucked up beyond repair, and if it IS repairable, the process will now feel like tedious labor rather than fun-filled daydreaming.

Sands:
I guess I really want to point you in the direction of this. I think you're just another of those victims who were told to blindly believe no matter what and it later on bit them in the ass. I can't say you can really be blamed when it was something spread by others. Always thought it was a bad way of forcing.

Yeah we did talk a lot some time ago, can't remember all of it though you probably remember it better. You're damn right you'll be spanked.

Well, you gotta accept the fact that if you want to get there, you are going to have to work. I do suggest that you have short sessions so you can easily leave, sit down and chill with the tulpa without having to procrastinate and be all ugggh such a chore, I'd rather be online for five more minutes. Procrastination is a bitch, but you can only really stop it by starting to do whatever it was that you had to do. You have to realize that.

Though of course forcing doesn't have to be a chore. I don't know what you find enjoyable, so I can't really help there. I can give you some ideas for what to do, though. Maybe.

You say that your visualization sucks and that you have no idea what to talk about when narrating. Narration is a super important tool in tulpaforcing so of course this is a skill you have to learn and it will definitely help with building that sentience. One-sided conversations are hard, yeah, not much to go with. But hey, how about you either look at wonderland clouds if you want to practice visualization too or just go outside to look at real clouds. Or look at videos of clouds of something. It's easy to see shapes in the clouds, so you could use them to give you ideas. That one cloud looks like a duck? Tell her all you know about ducks. Tell her what you think about them and maybe ask her what she thinks about them. Give her some time to answer, in case she does. Listen, but not just with your ears. A response from a non-vocal and even a vocal tulpa could come in many different forms. Oh, and if you look at wonderland clouds, you won't know if the clouds have been affected by your tulpa or not, so you could possibly be allowing her to ask you questions without her having to be able to talk or you questioning if it was omg really her, because it doesn't matter. Clouds, see, talk. If it was her, it doesn't matter, because you're talking about what you see anyways. If she asked you, you answered even if you didn't think it came from her.

Visualization, stare at her some more. I think you were the guy who felt weird with staring at a chick, but come on. If she was annoyed with it, she'd let you know. An excellent way to bait possible reactions, huh? Maybe at some point you'd like to do some imposition-lite, too. I often went outside when Roswell was young and "took" him with me by imposing. I didn't see him or anything, sometimes felt. Either his presence or touch, but it didn't matter. I could hold his hand and lead him, I could show him things and talk about them. In my mind of course because I don't want to show my power level. I would go shopping with him and explain things, also asking him questions now and then. It was an excellent way to make him a part of my life and also narrate and get ideas for what to talk about.

I think I did suggest you to try to learn to visualize better, as an image you can follow might help you see responses from your tulpa before you get actual words out of her. I still think it's a good idea, but you can easily work on narration and visualization (and maybe that imposition-lite, huh?) on different days so it doesn't get too boring and samey. Maybe you want to start with visualizing something you can and/or really want to, so you get started and get the hang of it. If you can visualize one thing, you'll be able to visualize, well, everything. Trust me on that.

I said this once but I'll say it again to stress it. Don't just listen for a response with your ears. You might be able to see or just plain feel it. They might not be words, but it can be a response and you definitely can get somewhere with it.

This won't help with everything and I probably said many things I already said in the past that didn't help you at all, but hey. Words. See if they help you at all.

Makogeddon:

--- Quote from: Sands on October 04, 2013, 05:35:47 PM ---Compared to that, always believing should be good for both, right? Well, in my honest opinion, I disagree. I have seen firsthand how a person believed in their tulpas and was hoping to go further down the rabbit hole. But as time passed and not much progress was made other than having a mindvoice coming from the tulpas, an ugly problem reared its head. To the person, the tulpa just felt like themselves, just as if they were parroting. But the host believed and didn't doubt, because it would get better, surely. But it never did. The feeling of the tulpa just being the host didn't go anywhere and now even worse doubts became a part of them. Because the host blindly believed and hadn't questioned anything at all, nothing was left once they started doubting those responses they first thought were real. It was easy to believe in the start, but became impossible later on. They never got over the hurdle where they truly could believe in the tulpa after a lot of work, thinking and dedication, because they thought they never had to jump and the jump would be made for them later on. And once the host got to this point, the jump no longer was possible in their eyes.
--- End quote ---

Wow, for a minute I actually thought you were talking about me there, even though we don't really know each other.

Ok, so here's the thing. First let me just thank the both of you, as you two are actually helping a lot... or you would be if I knew which method to go with. Both make a lot of sense to me and I appreciate the clear-cut instructions and I feel like I'd know what to do now if I could decide on which one to go with.

Fede, everything you said in your first paragraph really chimes with me. And I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to go with the method that sounds like I would be the best with, but I sort of forgot to mention in my first post that I had pretty much been using your method up until the moment everything fell apart because of my realization. "Don't give a fuck about whether the response is real or not" is a better way of describing what I was doing than "Believe everything is real", although I probably started having more blind belief as time went on. And it was going fine until I realized that none of the responses felt alien and she couldn't do possession and... well, everything I said in my first post. I really like your method, but I have doubts about its legitimacy. Is a response process that becomes automated by getting used to it the same thing as hearing an alien voice inside your head as if you have schizophrenia? Is the tulpa able to have parallel processing, is it able to possess and switch with you? (And I'm not talking about the "possibly sending urges while the host acts on them and bullshits himself" kind of possession, I'm talking about the "holy shit i just got fucking POSSESSED" kind of possession.)

I'm in no way criticizing your guide, I could have easily just given up on it before I really started to make progress with it for all I know. But if I'm going to be using it again, I need to know that the realizations I made about my tulpa's legitimacy simply came about prematurely and that she would have become more independent if I stuck with it.

And Sands, your post here is under the assumption that I know the potential responses are just me parroting, but the post you linked to assumes that I'm getting responses that I'm unsure of. Honestly, I kind of don't know how people can wonder if they're parroting or not; if they can't just wait and see if they hear/feel a response, and instead they have to consciously do something that results in their tulpa saying something (but only when the host does that thing), isn't that parroting? Sure, the case could be made that you're actively listening for a response rather than creating one yourself, but to me that just feels like another excuse that was made up to support the "believe everything" mindset. I feel like those are the types of responses you're talking about in the linked thread (though correct me if I'm wrong), whereas your post here acts as guidance to hearing actual alien responses, rather than actively seeking out those uncertain responses like I had been doing until I made the decision to avoid parroting. Both your post here and the one you linked seem like very sound advice to me, but they seem to contradict each other (either that or I'm just misinterpreting everything).

I would personally prefer to go with Fede's method, or a combination of his method and the advice you gave in the linked thread, but I'm going to hold off on that until I know for certain that it actually leads to a real tulpa (no offense fede you're still cool).

also fede i tried eye-bo a few times and one time i kept it up for 20 minutes and saw noticeable improvements in my visualization but it regressed back to shit after i went back to being lazy and did nothing for a few days afterwards so yeah i'll probably start doing that regularly once i start having my daily half-hour forcing sessions, assuming that level of use won't make my brain want to vomit
though i have no idea if it was the eye-bo itself that helped me or it was the fact that i actually managed to visualize for 20 minutes straight and i sort of don't know if the thing actually works like you claim it does

Sands:
Hah, yeah, the story about blindly believing. It wasn't about you, but if you see it being pretty similar to what you went through... I think that's proof that blindly believing isn't the best way to do this, huh? It's not a single case that had it backfire, it's more than one person.


--- Quote from: Makogeddon on October 16, 2013, 06:24:29 PM ---And Sands, your post here is under the assumption that I know the potential responses are just me parroting, but the post you linked to assumes that I'm getting responses that I'm unsure of. Honestly, I kind of don't know how people can wonder if they're parroting or not; if they can't just wait and see if they hear/feel a response, and instead they have to consciously do something that results in their tulpa saying something (but only when the host does that thing), isn't that parroting? Sure, the case could be made that you're actively listening for a response rather than creating one yourself, but to me that just feels like another excuse that was made up to support the "believe everything" mindset. I feel like those are the types of responses you're talking about in the linked thread (though correct me if I'm wrong), whereas your post here acts as guidance to hearing actual alien responses, rather than actively seeking out those uncertain responses like I had been doing until I made the decision to avoid parroting. Both your post here and the one you linked seem like very sound advice to me, but they seem to contradict each other (either that or I'm just misinterpreting everything).

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I don't really see where your first sentence comes from. I mean, I'm not a good writer so it's very easily for me to write one thing and mean something else, so if something I said felt like it said something else and you can show it to me, I'll read it and tell you what I actually meant. Sorry if I didn't really word myself correctly but I guess I'll write some more words in case they help explain a few things. Warning this is massive tl;dr and woflo is going to hate me for this, help. I hope you will be able to get to the end, though. Won't blame you if you don't.

Sure, it's obvious when you parrot your tulpa. You make them say things, ta-dah. But it's still a very common question. Especially early on, it was a constant battle of making the tulpa prove themselves to have done that before you bought any of it and unless it was an auditory hallucination that was completely alien, your tulpa didn't say it and it was just you parroting them. That's why I felt it was really important to talk about whether or not it is you tulpa and why it just doesn't matter early on when you are starting out.

Is listening parroting? I'd say it's not. I can tell you some things I've experienced when working on a tulpa and I can also tell you stuff others have told me, so believe what you want. A young tulpa is rarely strong. Their voice is faint and difficult to hear. How do you expect your young and weak tulpa to overpower all your other thoughts so they can be heard? Besides, how would they answer when you're already talking? That would be kinda rude.

I tell people to stop and listen because it was a problem with me. I was talking to him, telling him stuff and asking him questions... Except I never stopped to let him answer. It didn't even matter to me if he did or didn't, I just talked. I don't think "he's not going to answer, so why bother waiting for it?" is the best mindset when working with tulpas and trying to get them vocal. You're training yourself to have something else responding to you in your mind and in my case, it definitely was more about learning how to listen. Guess what? Later on I did notice that Roswell could give me signs of his answer. Not actual words, those came much later, but all kinds of other feelings I found I couldn't quite replicate perfectly myself, so they at least were something I could go with. Did I believe yet? I didn't, but I was being pretty stupid when I wasn't waiting for a possible response when I could get some if I just gave him a few seconds to actually respond. Surely I could've had a vocal tulpa much earlier if I just wasn't in such a hurry to just talk and talk.

So why does it help when I let him respond and I don't even fully believe it was my tulpa? Narration. Like you said, it's difficult to have a one-sided conversation. There's only so much I can talk about myself and the questions I ask my tulpa are pretty worthless if I don't even try waiting. So, let's say I do get a response of some sort. Maybe it's an obvious yes or no, or maybe it's something else. Just a feeling. Maybe you are talking about those ducks and suddenly you get the feeling of "let's talk about dogs instead". No words, mind you, just a feeling, a hunch. Was it you or your tulpa? It doesn't matter. Start talking about dogs. If it was you, well, you probably were running out of duck things to say and if you weren't, you can talk about ducks again later. You didn't push it on your tulpa in case it wasn't them. If it was your tulpa, you actually followed what they said. They saw they got noticed and it surely will make them feel better and will train you to be able to pick up all kinds of responses. You don't have to believe, so it's not a blindly believe everything mindset. You just follow it if the idea you got sounds good. Don't follow stupid ideas, of course. Or talk about why the idea is stupid.

My tulpa would move once he had a form. At first I had a problem with keeping everything still, but then I managed to relax and just let things happen in my imagination. I'm the kind of a person who has a really good control over their imagination, so this included learning how to not be such a control freak. So, anyways, tulpa would move. Would I believe it was the tulpa? I didn't. I didn't care, it was or wasn't. At one point though, I just had to say that hey, you know, you've surprised me so many times that either it's you or I'm good at lying to myself. I don't really care what it is, so I'll just go with "it's you". So I did.

I did the same to many other kinds of responses, as well. I didn't doubt, but I didn't believe. I let it come and once it started to look more and more like it wasn't me, I could allow myself to start actually trusting it. Him getting vocal was the same. Do you think I got some omg alien sound out of nowhere? No, sure as hell I didn't. Actually let's go back a bit and I'll remind you that back when I heard about tulpas, what you were supposed to get from the tulpa would be this alien voice that is totally like some other person's voice. Strong, clear, obvious. That's one of the reasons why both of the early guides said that it will take hundreds of hours of forcing to get a vocal tulpa, because actually getting those hallucinations when you're in an aware state is pretty difficult. Luckily for us though, "mindvoice" started to become a thing after vocal tulpas chewed at their hosts for not fucking listening to them when they tried to get their attention. We learned to listen with other things than just our ears.

So, anyways, I got a response after tons of work and symbolism and shit to make us able to do it. Did I believe it? No. If it was him, it was. If it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't some special moment for me where I finally knew I had a sapient tulpa (that actually came before vocality) that could speak. But, I allowed it to happen. Later on I started thinking. You know, it was pretty similar to me, so maybe it was me. But it also was different. It was slower, the speech pattern wasn't identical, the words he used weren't ones I'd use. It came from a different spot in my head - I know, sounds weird but it makes sense to me - and well, the voice that seemed similar to my own opposed some things I felt really strongly about. Hell, should I still disbelieve all that? I could, but whatever it was, I had a voice in my head that had opinions of its own. That's tulpa enough for me, so I let it be. I definitely did have to stop and let him talk seeing that he was super slow and pretty quiet, but it only got better from there as we practiced and talked more. And then we could have actual conversations.

Could you wait for the totally alien hallucination? Maybe. But it's not that easy to get those hallucinations. It would take a ton of work and then you probably would doubt that too, because you realized you can cause hallucinations yourself. Usually, what the tulpa can do, you can do. Sometimes it might take some practice to be able to do it just right, but you're going to be able to get pretty close in many cases...

Anyways, even now when I'm really into something, it's really hard to get me a message across. Roswell has taken to just giving me a short message of yo slow down, I wanna talk. Which I then do and he says what he wanted to say when I'm not busy with something else. Don't know about you, but I basically think in a mindvoice all the time. My head is a really busy and loud place, so it's not too easy to get anything in, especially if you want me to notice it. A clever tulpa tries many forms of communication and sees which ones they can do and which ones you actually hear. If you block all their possible methods of communicating, well, you're not going to be doing too well.

A good state for listening is a relaxed one. I didn't use to understand what it meant when others talked about it, but I do now. You let your thoughts just flow freely without trying to stop them, as you might very well stop a response. You're not trying to fill your head with thoughts, or they will drown everything. Just let them go. If you hear something, you don't have to believe if you're skeptical. It's good material for narration - or maybe you could even see if you can hold a conversation with the voice. All good material for later narration, when you talk about what you experienced to your tulpa and ask them if they were there. Even if you don't hear anything, it's not a bad thing. Sometimes it's good to slow down and just listen to what's going on in your head.

Fede's stuff might help you with visualization, but I have never tried it myself. At least not long enough to see if it would help, but you did report that Eye-Bo helped. I guess when you talk to me and Fede, you gotta keep in mind that I think tulpas are sapient even though I have no proof of it, while Fede thinks that they're not even though he has no proof of it. Do I believe in my own tulpa these days? I do. Does he believe in his tulpas? I think he does. And I probably got his exact view wrong because it's hard to explain in one sentence, but our views are pretty different. Do what you think is the best.

Makogeddon:
I did read everything, Sands, and I think I understand now. The responses you were getting sound like the ones I get that I refuse to accept because I believe they're parroting; and also the same kind of responses I was getting when I realized they were fake (though from what you've said I don't think I necessarily believe they were fake anymore). As for the sentence you quoted, I was talking about how your post here seemed to be going under the assumption that I'm getting nothing but silence from her because of the fact that I wasn't "listening for responses" and was instead waiting in silence to hear an alien voice in my head, whereas the post you linked to was more concerning someone who would be attempting to hear responses and then being unsure of whether or not they're parroting the things that they hear. I'm guessing you're suggesting that I do the latter rather than the former. I had been doing the former ever since The Night It All Fell Apart but I occasionally listened for responses because it was just so fucking torturous to hear nothing but silence, although I thought the "listening" was just me parroting. It does sound kind of absurdly fucktarded that I was expecting an alien voice out of nowhere, and I'd probably do a whole lot better with the listening until I can get to that point.

I think I actually understand where I went wrong now, holy shit. I had been using a combination of listening for responses and fede-esque parroting, and eventually I realized that none of the responses sounded alien; but instead of realizing that I was just consciously listening for them, I decided that they were all being parroted.
... Although, I'm still not entirely sure if I was wrong there. It wasn't really a sudden epiphany like I've been describing it to be, it was a bunch of slowly accumulating signs pointing to her fakeness that were all pretty legitimate proofs that she wasn't yet developed. She had no parallel processing whatsoever and all her thoughts were dependent on me... which is why "parroting" seemed to make a hell of a lot more sense than "listening" because I was the one thinking for her. Actually, yeah, forget about the realization I just had that I was listening rather than parroting, I'm pretty sure it counts as parroting when you know everything your tulpa is going to... wait, no, now that I think about it she actually did say plenty of things I wasn't expecting and... um... ok, maybe she had parallel processing? I dunno. There were a lot of things she couldn't do unless I was aware of them (doing things behind my back for example) but the things she said... I guess those were real? Huh. Do you think I just gave up before she had a chance to develop more independence?

Also, Fede: your guide is my favorite by far, and the method suits me and sounds way more fun (her being able to start conversations, for instance) and a lot less painful (since I'd know everything is parroted and wouldn't have to worry about it). I really hope that it's something that would give me the kind of tulpa I'm hoping for (responses that eventually feel alien, ability to possess and switch, etc.) because I would definitely prefer using it, it's just that I'm suspicious of it. The idea of intentionally parroting her feels dirty, and I could ignore that feeling if I knew that it eventually stops being parroting and slowly turns into real responses, which I guess is what you're saying would happen, but... I don't know, I'm just really confused and conflicted here.

I should also add that I absolutely fucking suck at using anything that isn't your method, and everything else is a lot less fun. This even applies to listening to responses rather than waiting in silence; that's actually sort of what I've been doing for the past few weeks or maybe even a month or two (the silence was too unbearable), and everything I described in my first post about things feeling like a chore is still true. It'd be easier now that I know I can listen for responses without them counting as parroting, but... yeah, I'm really just not good at this.

So right now I'm torn between doing something I'm terrible with and won't have any motivation for, or doing something I'd be much better at and would actually enjoy but am unsure of because I don't know if it results in a legitimate tulpa (the parallel processing you described is one thing, but you still never answered my question about possession and switching). I sort of feel like you're going to tell me that it doesn't actually result in what my definition of a legitimate tulpa is but that the entire "legitimate" label is retarded and pointless as long as the tulpa does what you want it to do, but what I want mine to do involves an (eventual) actual mind of its own with the ability to function without my conscious thinking and the ability to do things behind my back and possess and switch and all that good stuff and I'm still not sure if that's what I would get with Fede's Way™.

But ok yeah I'll probably start using eye-bo during visualization sessions.

(apologies if this post sounded inconsistent, i wrote all the paragraphs out of order and kept pausing to write new ones and then go back to the old ones)

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