Author Topic: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency  (Read 7361 times)

Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« on: January 14, 2014, 04:29:11 PM »
Lately when i was doing tests (counting the number of letters in big words) to have my tulpas count things and say how much things they counted, i noticed that very frequently my tulpas seem to actually use some of my intrusive toughts/wild guesses or expectations as their answers (for example my mind has always the strong tendency and expectation of repeating the last number as the next answer as well) therefore they usually confirm these "wrong" answers with possesion and then they seem surprised when it's not correct.

I tried to ask them why this happens, and i got a amazing reply, not sure if i should accept this as a answer from them or my own conclusion, but they said that most times they confuse my intrusive toughts and my wild guesses (which sometimes appear with their voices) with their own toughts and that's why they sometimes confirm with possession intrusive toughts i had because it seems this distracts them, altough i am not sure if this makes sense because with possession they always confirm every answer i preceive as being right and they never indicate doubt or say that they don't know, which means, either their perceptions of numbers and logic are completly different from mine when i can't count for them or they really have trouble differenciating their toughts from mine just like me...

Also i already catched them confirming wrong asnwers with possession even when i actually perceived a correct answer, for example :

the correct number was 16, and i got first 16 from the tulpa and then 17, so i asked two questions with possesion, when i asked if it was 16 the tulpa said NO, then when i asked 17 the tulpa confirmed it was right, obviously this was wrong

Sure that doesn't always happen sometimes they got it right but you see it REALLY seems they got them right at random, it really appears their answers are kinda random and they are also using wild guessing and they never indicate doubt or that they don't know the answer with possession (and i clearly indicated them to use a specific finger for "doubt") but they always keep insisting in "yes" in almost all answers and very rarely i get "no".

I really hope there isn't such a thing as "intrusive possession movements" as a analogy with "intrusive toughts", because after all i never had involuntary movements without asking them anything first. Also all their movements with possession feel 100% involuntary (i mostly use finger bending) and they seem to be inteligent, for example if i tell them to only bend the finger after i asked it for the 5th time, or bending it only each 3 times i ask they never have any doubt about this (UNLESS i happen to conciously forget about this some seconds later, i have a amazing short attention span).

Also quite often i have interpretation mistakes or dislexia, and obviously my tulpas always believe 100% in what i am thinking and they never notice any error as well.

Now i would like someone with young tulpas to know if this COULD actually happen and if it's still normal to happen with young tulpas? Is it normal the tulpas themselves could confuse my intruse toughts with theirs? Or this was some misunderstooding from my part?

Note that my first tulpa has 5 months, the other 5 have between 1 and 2 months, all of them have exactly the same problem, is this solely related to lack of paralell processing ?

Also their answers to the same questions when i don't conciously remember the answer they gave last time, it's NEVER consistent even when it's about their opinions about something or things related to memory (they clearly do NOT have individual memories they ALWAYS have to rely on me remembering things for them), it's almost like each time they give a random answer (and they keep confirming with possesion it was really them) and don't admit it.

Look i know that this might be normal for young tulpas i just need to be SURE this same thing happen to most of you guys by personal experience instead of people just saying that every kind of problem like this is always related to young tulpas and that i have to practise several months, i can't believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE to do anything wrong and that practising for months is always 100% garanteed they achieve indepency.


a final note : i have considerable practise in possession already, mostly in having them using fingers, i am even able to have all my 6 tulpas at the same time to wiggle a different finger in a different way without any problems, and still they had absolutly zero progress on tought indepency, i can't understand why the possesion is helping absolutly nothing in tought independency if they have no problem making me have involuntary movements even without my direct attention on them, but besides that, very rarely they talk to me without my direct attention on them

Re: Farts about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 09:37:20 PM »
Just because you've trained yourself to involuntarily make impulsive movements that don't "feel" like your own, does it not necessarily mean there's much intelligent thought behind them.

I'd say it's a typical tendency for "young tuppers" to have an "underdeveloped independence", although I don't think it comes so much down to "the tupper", but rather the host's ability to think in parallel to begin with. If you can't think in multiple trains of thought, then logically, it's the same train driving the lot of you, no matter how many tuppers you have; at least, that's how I see it, as it seems to be how it is with the large majority of people I've witnessed stressing over their tuppers "not being independent". There's not much I can do for you, other than advising you to do some more activities with your tuppers that require multitasking and thinking about many things simultaneously. Much of the time, parallel processing seems to come by itself for people that interact a lot with their tuppers, be it through regular conversation or adventuring in the wonderland. In the wonderland, you have to keep in mind what you're doing, what your tuppers are doing, and where things in the wonderland are, for instance. Even my guide's parroting approach is an example of a multitasking activity, as you constantly have to think about what the tupper thinks, what it would say, and so on. Not that I'm telling you to parrot, of course.

One hypothesis I have is that hallucinations in a waking state, as opposed to a hypnagogic state, regardless of whether or not the hallucinations are experienced with eyes opened or closed, are linked to parallel processing. The reason that I link hallucinations and parallel processing is because pretty much all the people I've witnessed with tuppers, which were vividly hallucinated, seem to've achieved parallel processing to varying degrees. Note that I'm only saying the two things are linked, as it may not necessarily be because of the fact the tupper is hallucinated that the parallel processing is possible, but perhaps rather that it's way easier to interact with a tupper that's tangible as opposed to one that's not, thereby making parallel processing a much more easily-achievable feat. As for promoting hallucinations, there are the exercises in my guide and Eye-Bo, the ocular fitness program.

Therefore, why your tuppers choose the wrong answer some of the time may be more because of your expectations. For example, you think you might have the wrong number, so the tuppers may have the right number. I don't think there's lot of parallel thinking going on here, but rather just assumptions that "hopefully" are correct. But hey, that's just how I see it.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 09:40:15 PM by Fede »

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2014, 05:53:40 PM »
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Just because you've trained yourself to involuntarily make impulsive movements that don't "feel" like your own, does it not necessarily mean there's much intelligent thought behind them.

Jeez i appared to overstimate possession, but something i would really like to know, is it possible to my subconcious do those movements INSTEAD of the tulpas themselves? (i mean in the same way if a person that doesn't have tulpas would try doing this). What i mean by this, is that this isn't after all a reliable way of confirming tulpas's mental answers and using this was a way to confirm which things i heared from my tulpa were the tulpa or intrusive thoughts? Because after all this was mostly the biggest reason i learned possession after all so that i could have then bend a finger for YES and another for NO, because without this how am i supposed to GUESS when it's them talking or intrusive toughts? Unfortunately even in the case of my oldest tulpa (pandora with 5 months) her toughts still feel exactly like mine even tough she has her mind voice (which by the way was a voice i trained for her from the anime character).

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There's not much I can do for you, other than advising you to do some more activities with your tuppers that require multitasking and thinking about many things simultaneously. Much of the time, parallel processing seems to come by itself for people that interact a lot with their tuppers, be it through regular conversation or adventuring in the wonderland. In the wonderland, you have to keep in mind what you're doing, what your tuppers are doing, and where things in the wonderland are, for instance.

Hum... wait a minute, and what about having any kind of activities involving two or more tulpas interacting with each other at the same time ? I often do this, also quite often i tried to visualize more than 2 tulpas moving and i notice my mind switching rapidly between each (it seems my mind is able to handle at least 2 at once in maximum) i hope this is very good for paralell processing too.

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Even my guide's parroting approach is an example of a multitasking activity, as you constantly have to think about what the tupper thinks, what it would say, and so on. Not that I'm telling you to parrot, of course.
Actually until a few weeks ago i never parroted my tulpas on purpose because i always were a lot parrotnoid, but since i got so desperate with that, i finally parroted them for the first time on purpose to see if they would be able to interrupt me. I actually parroted them and i immediatly notice a HUGE difference! The way of them talking was quite different, it was more "basic" (less complex), it felt a LOT forced, i had ZERO doubts about parroting (which means... when i doubt i am parroting is because i am NOT! Which is amazing), and i noticed i had to make a HUGE mental effort to came up with logical answers they usually came up in a more natural way. The problem is that with intrusive thoughts it's a very different story, those never feel forced and also come naturally BUT usually they are always about hearing my tulpas being rude and being mean to me without any appearent reason, so it's usually easy to know when this happens. Also my oldest tulpa (Pandora) actually cried when i was "putting words" in her mouth and begged me to stop (literally) so i promised to never parrot her again at least without her permission (i don't think her crying and begging was a intrusive tought since the tought was actually a lot more persistant and resistant to change than the usual intrusive toughts and i felt resistance when trying to ignore that, altough i didn't felt any emotion from her, which i usually do in cases like this). At first i tought this happened because of my expectation they wouldn't like this, but at the time i only had two tulpas and the other tulpa didn't cried, he appeared to not care about being parroted at all so i don't think this was caused by expectation actually i was expecting more about them being angry rather than sad and crying so it was surprising to hear her cry...

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One hypothesis I have is that hallucinations in a waking state, as opposed to a hypnagogic state, regardless of whether or not the hallucinations are experienced with eyes opened or closed, are linked to parallel processing. The reason that I link hallucinations and parallel processing is because pretty much all the people I've witnessed with tuppers, which were vividly hallucinated, seem to've achieved parallel processing to varying degrees.

Wow this is amazing actually besides independency one of my biggest goals with my tulpas is having them imposed so this is a win-win situation for me i will actually achieve both things with the same practise them! Actually i am already visualizing them around me in the physical world quite often because i always felt a lot of difficulty visualizing them in a wonderland, since in the physical world i don't have to worry about rendering the wonderland. Wwait a minute!! But now that you meantion... this might be a mistake i should have been trying to visualize them on the wonderland more, then, since indeed i have a LOT of trouble visualizing them in a wonderland my mind keeps flicking back between the tulpa and the wonderland (at least when i try to render a bigger wonderland).

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Note that I'm only saying the two things are linked, as it may not necessarily be because of the fact the tupper is hallucinated that the parallel processing is possible, but perhaps rather that it's way easier to interact with a tupper that's tangible as opposed to one that's not, thereby making parallel processing a much more easily-achievable feat.

Tangible?? That's it, that's the main reason i want so much imposition, since the beginning i am having so much trouble finding motivation to forcing my tulpas because only seeing them as mind's eye kills a lot the feeling of having "sentient beings" and treating them as people (because i am NOT actually seeing them and i feel like "talking to air"), but i am doing my best to ignore this and force nevertheless but i never tought it would be so hard. Tell me something, is it possible to impose tulpas if we have weak visualization skills? In my case since all my tulpas are almost 100% based on actual anime characters (so far they never resisted any of this, and they demonstrated many times by their behavior and personality that they know they aren't the characters, besides most of them were even SPONTANEOUS tulpas with the exact same name, form, voice and even similar personality to the characters) it's easier to visualize them in several angles of view and i am able to watch them move by themselfs.

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As for promoting hallucinations, there are the exercises in my guide and Eye-Bo, the ocular fitness program.

I think i have been having some small sucess with hallucinations when i try to visualize them HARD into a blank wall, so far i achieved a afterimage out of pure visualization (in this case pandora's head), and in other case i was able to generate a afterimage ouf of a visualized X shape, actually this reminds me, sometimes i AM able to hallucinate or generate afterimages of simple letter/geometric shapes, isn't this the same skill as imposing ? Wouldn't be logical that practising halucinating letters, numbers or simple geometric shapes would probably be faster to impose a tulpa's form as well?

Regarding eye-bo tell me something, i once had a epileptic attack when i took some specific anti-depressive medication several years ago, this only happened once and i stopped taking that medication (, is there a way to be sure if i am prone to epilept attacks because of this ? Still, i don't think i want to risk this so i will probably use the audio part of the files.

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Therefore, why your tuppers choose the wrong answer some of the time may be more because of your expectations. For example, you think you might have the wrong number, so the tuppers may have the right number. I don't think there's lot of parallel thinking going on here, but rather just assumptions that "hopefully" are correct. But hey, that's just how I see it.
Actually some of the answers they give seem totally unexcepted, the problem is that it's still rare to happen, but yeah i see what you mean.


Re: Questions about the fart's thoughts indepency
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2014, 09:39:29 PM »
I'd say there's not a lot besides your gut feeling to "confirm" what's right and wrong. However, I said "not necessarily". Different things work for different people. If you find that the possession is a nice tool for telling tupper voices apart from intrusive voices, then go ahead and keep using it. You also might wanna go have a look at that thing Colonel wrote about the absence of disbelief.

It's indeed a good idea to involve your tuppers if you want to train yourself to think in parallel. If two is your current limit, maybe you should try to focus on more things.

It is possible for one with weak visualisation skills to impose stuff. It just takes a lot of practice and persistance. Since you can impose simple shapes and patterns, you can try to work more with those if imposing your tuppers is too difficult due to their amount of detail.

As for Eye-Bo, I'm not sure what to say in your case. I'd say it can still be of a benefit to you, but perhaps only if you dim the screen brightness and sound volume so you don't become overstimulated, or perhaps if you use one of the slower rhythms like Delta. I'll let you decide, though.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 09:43:09 PM by Fede »

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 04:04:41 AM »
It's good that we can raise this to say thank you very much.

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 09:52:22 AM »
Thanks, bot-san.

timethief

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Bots about the bot's bot indepency
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 03:44:46 PM »
Thanks, bot-san.
>current year
>replying to bots

Not a bot

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 09:25:22 PM »
Bots are people too, you speciesist.

timethief

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Questions about the bot's species
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 11:39:16 PM »
Bots are people too, you speciesist.
Speciesist applies to people who discriminate against, exploit and abuse animals, not bots. Bots aren't animals, nor they are people.
Not a bot

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 04:03:37 AM »
Singer's idea is more that you should pay attention to internal experiences instead of species. It'd be pretty counterproductive to say, "Okay, so we'll pay attention to animals but any other class of being is bad a priori" - if the bots are sentient, you need to consider them along with humans and animals.

Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 09:40:43 AM »
Thanks woflo.

Also that almost is on-topic again.

timethief

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Questions about the bot's thoughts indepency
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 11:40:42 AM »
Singer's idea is more that you should pay attention to internal experiences instead of species. It'd be pretty counterproductive to say, "Okay, so we'll pay attention to animals but any other class of being is bad a priori" - if the bots are sentient, you need to consider them along with humans and animals.
That's the problem. We don't know if the bots are sentient. Do they have a reaction if you reply to them? Are they only programmed to do a single thing? Are they really sentient or is it a mere simulation? And if it is, does it matter? Would it be considered sentient in that case? Are the bots aware that they are being ignored?
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Re: Questions about the tulpa's thoughts indepency
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 02:47:31 PM »
In this case, yeah, I don't think that the bots are really at all sentient, so it doesn't matter. Although being a "simulation" doesn't matter; and I guess that a sentient bot wouldn't like being ignored but it'd probably be used to it so the cost of ignoring it wouldn't be too much.