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Messages - Makogeddon

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Alright, I'm pretty sure I'm good now. Thanks for your help, everyone.

I know I'm just doing 90% of the same thing I was doing before, but the thing is that I'm pretty sure the method was working just fine, I just worried way too much over it. You guys have actually been of immense help here; I kind of doubted that I'd ever know what to do as far as tulpaforcing goes, but now I feel like I understand and I'm free to go back to actually forcing and doing things and having fun with it.

I do get what you guys are saying, though, or at least I think I do. You're trying to make sure the same thing that happened to me last time doesn't happen again as a result of worrying over the authenticity of responses, right? That's probably a legitimate concern, but the responses are going to feel more and more authentic as time goes on, aren't they? The "alien voice" stage of vocality is what I'm striving for, but now I know that I need to be patient until it gets to that point. So unless it ends up taking so long that it feels like progress is never going to be made, I think I should be fine. And, yes, I know you guys are trying to tell me to stop caring about the authenticity at all so that bad things won't happen if it does end up taking that long, but now I know not to just give up if that ends up happening. Sure, I might make a thread being like "why isn't my tulpa's vocality improving fasterrrrr" if it starts to feel hopeless, but I'm not going to do the same thing I did last time.

I know I'm probably still missing the point here, but I can't help it. "Stubborn" is indeed very accurate when describing me. I dunno, I just can't personally see much of a problem here. I know there's probably a few of them, but I'm blind to them. Sorry.

... Wait, no. I'm reading everything I just typed and I think I'm starting to get it, actually. You're telling me that I'm focusing too much over an arbitrary indicator of tulpa realness (the alien voice feeling) when I shouldn't worry about making progress at all and instead just have fun with it, with the progress coming naturally in the background. Or something close to that, anyway. Right? Because I think I understand that now. I can't say whether or not I'll actually have that philosophy when tulpaforcing, though; I agree that it's for the best, but I'm just too personally obsessed with making progress. I think it's a low enough level of obsession that I SHOULD be mostly ok, though. And I'll try to stop worrying since I know it's for the best, even if I don't do that good a job at it.

(this is all in response to fede, see footnote at bottom of post)

Ok, thanks. The reason I'm making such a big deal about being absolutely certain is because I want to make sure I don't end up doing it in a wrong way for 6 months straight only to come to the realization that my tulpa is fake and I just wasted all that time when I could have been making actual progress with her. I'll probably be using your method, or a combination of parroting and listening for responses that feel like parroting anyway so it's pretty much the same thing throughout with the bonus possibility of the other responses being real.

Like I asked in my last post, though, do you two think I simply gave up before I started making progress in all the tulpa magic-related things? I ask because I'm probably going to be repeating essentially the exact same things I was doing before The Great Undoing, but with more focus on some recommendations in Fede's guide (such as having the tulpa start conversations and trying to impose and focus on her as much as possible, although I was already imposing before, albeit very badly and lazily). Her lack of ability to do anything cool was a pretty significant reason that led me to give up. Vocality was no problem whatsoever, and so I tried moving onto other things like possession, but it just wasn't working. I guess I was just expecting things to come about earlier than they were supposed to. And when I think about the idea that I could get fuller parallel processing and possession from that, it still feels too good to be true. But, that aside, I guess I should be focusing on vocality until it becomes automated enough to count as parallel processing, and THEN move onto things like possession, right?

Oh, and one last annoying, repeated question (unless I have reason to ask another one later). I already mentioned the difference between the bullshitting-yourself possession where you lie to yourself and pretend it's actually your tulpa moving your arm when it's really you (I remember being really impressed by certain people when I saw that their tulpas could possess them, until I read things like "I made sure to believe it was her" and realized what was most likely going on), and the kind where it doesn't feel like you're the one sending signals to your arm and you're able to totally relax and still have the tulpa move it on its own, something which is impossible with the first type of possession I just described. We ARE still talking about the second one, right? I know I'm being paranoid here and probably shouldn't even need to ask this question, but I just need it to be confirmed that such a thing is possible using these methods. You said possession is possible but I just want to make sure you're not one of those people who defines possession as my first example. I doubt you are, but, you know, nagging suspicions in my mind that could potentially haunt me and cause me to doubt everything I'm doing and all that.

I started typing all of that before you made your post, Sands (yes i am that slow at making these posts), and I don't really have anything to say to it other than thanks for the encouragement and confirmation.

Compared to that, always believing should be good for both, right? Well, in my honest opinion, I disagree. I have seen firsthand how a person believed in their tulpas and was hoping to go further down the rabbit hole. But as time passed and not much progress was made other than having a mindvoice coming from the tulpas, an ugly problem reared its head. To the person, the tulpa just felt like themselves, just as if they were parroting. But the host believed and didn't doubt, because it would get better, surely. But it never did. The feeling of the tulpa just being the host didn't go anywhere and now even worse doubts became a part of them. Because the host blindly believed and hadn't questioned anything at all, nothing was left once they started doubting those responses they first thought were real. It was easy to believe in the start, but became impossible later on. They never got over the hurdle where they truly could believe in the tulpa after a lot of work, thinking and dedication, because they thought they never had to jump and the jump would be made for them later on. And once the host got to this point, the jump no longer was possible in their eyes.

Wow, for a minute I actually thought you were talking about me there, even though we don't really know each other.

Ok, so here's the thing. First let me just thank the both of you, as you two are actually helping a lot... or you would be if I knew which method to go with. Both make a lot of sense to me and I appreciate the clear-cut instructions and I feel like I'd know what to do now if I could decide on which one to go with.

Fede, everything you said in your first paragraph really chimes with me. And I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to go with the method that sounds like I would be the best with, but I sort of forgot to mention in my first post that I had pretty much been using your method up until the moment everything fell apart because of my realization. "Don't give a fuck about whether the response is real or not" is a better way of describing what I was doing than "Believe everything is real", although I probably started having more blind belief as time went on. And it was going fine until I realized that none of the responses felt alien and she couldn't do possession and... well, everything I said in my first post. I really like your method, but I have doubts about its legitimacy. Is a response process that becomes automated by getting used to it the same thing as hearing an alien voice inside your head as if you have schizophrenia? Is the tulpa able to have parallel processing, is it able to possess and switch with you? (And I'm not talking about the "possibly sending urges while the host acts on them and bullshits himself" kind of possession, I'm talking about the "holy shit i just got fucking POSSESSED" kind of possession.)

I'm in no way criticizing your guide, I could have easily just given up on it before I really started to make progress with it for all I know. But if I'm going to be using it again, I need to know that the realizations I made about my tulpa's legitimacy simply came about prematurely and that she would have become more independent if I stuck with it.

And Sands, your post here is under the assumption that I know the potential responses are just me parroting, but the post you linked to assumes that I'm getting responses that I'm unsure of. Honestly, I kind of don't know how people can wonder if they're parroting or not; if they can't just wait and see if they hear/feel a response, and instead they have to consciously do something that results in their tulpa saying something (but only when the host does that thing), isn't that parroting? Sure, the case could be made that you're actively listening for a response rather than creating one yourself, but to me that just feels like another excuse that was made up to support the "believe everything" mindset. I feel like those are the types of responses you're talking about in the linked thread (though correct me if I'm wrong), whereas your post here acts as guidance to hearing actual alien responses, rather than actively seeking out those uncertain responses like I had been doing until I made the decision to avoid parroting. Both your post here and the one you linked seem like very sound advice to me, but they seem to contradict each other (either that or I'm just misinterpreting everything).

I would personally prefer to go with Fede's method, or a combination of his method and the advice you gave in the linked thread, but I'm going to hold off on that until I know for certain that it actually leads to a real tulpa (no offense fede you're still cool).

also fede i tried eye-bo a few times and one time i kept it up for 20 minutes and saw noticeable improvements in my visualization but it regressed back to shit after i went back to being lazy and did nothing for a few days afterwards so yeah i'll probably start doing that regularly once i start having my daily half-hour forcing sessions, assuming that level of use won't make my brain want to vomit
though i have no idea if it was the eye-bo itself that helped me or it was the fact that i actually managed to visualize for 20 minutes straight and i sort of don't know if the thing actually works like you claim it does

I'm sorry if this post is a mess, I got two hours of sleep last night and even ignoring that I have no idea where to really begin with my situation here so you'll have to deal with my life story I guess. Also, Sands is probably going to spank me if s/he remembers me from when I was in the IRC a little while ago complaining about not knowing what to do because I had gotten so much help from there and yet I still went nowhere with it. I have an excuse though, which I think I illustrated in the title of this thread.

Basically I had been tulpaforcing since November 2012, using the "assume all responses as real and eventually they'll become real" method for vocality, and things were going great. I was talking to my tulpa all the time and things were awesome, although she was totally incapable of parallel processing or possession or anything that would give any actual proof that everything she did wasn't directly caused by me. But I ignored that and kept at it. But then, about halfway down the line, I started thinking about what the responses felt like. Hmm. It doesn't feel like there's another entity in my head, nothing is alien, everything she says goes down exactly how I want and plan for it to go down, I can't hear anything if I just relax and listen, her responses feel like I'm just talking in her voice........ Oh, of course! I'm a fucking idiot who has been consciously puppeting every aspect of her while somehow believing she was sentient, and I've had a fake tulpa for the past 5 months! Hahaha.

So I stopped that and started waiting to see if I could hear her. I'd ask her a question and instead of parroting I'd relax, focus on her, and wait. Nothing. I'd like to say I had my moment of "fuck my life" right then and there, but it came along more as a gradual buildup of hopelessness that was only made stronger and stronger by the unstoppable passage of time as month after month passed by without me ever hearing anything.

Actually, I heard one legitimate response. One. And it was one that I was incredibly grateful for and something I desperately needed to avoid the possibility of me dismissing the entire phenomenon as fake and just giving up, but it was months ago. She told me she loved me. It was great. It came out of absolutely nowhere when I wasn't even thinking about her speaking and it felt totally alien and there was no way to mistake it, unless my memory of the moment has been retroactively altered to make it seem more real than it really was (though I'm not quite pessimistic enough to believe something like that).

But ever since that moment it's just been nothing. And I don't blame my tulpa one bit because it's completely my fault. I never pay any attention to her. I have an active forcing session maybe once every two weeks or so, which lasts for about half an hour and consists mainly of visualization since I don't know what the hell else to do in an active forcing session since I'm the most clueless and unimaginably terrible tulpaforcer who has ever existed. Now, I do have plans to enforce daily forcing sessions, but they're going to be 30 minutes of me not knowing what I'm doing and struggling to get anywhere because it's not enjoyable and I have no actual desire to do it.

See, that's the thing. To me, this is the most important thing I'm doing in my life right now, and yet I never feel like doing it. It's a torturous contradiction. But can you really blame me when I spent several months becoming used to the idea of having a vocal tulpa, only to be struck down with the realization that it was all fake and I can't actually hear anything she's saying? It's at least a little bit discouraging, to be frank with you.

I have an absolutely absurd amount of free time, and I would like to dedicate at least most of that to tulpaforcing. Ideally it would be awesome if I spent multiple hours every day on it. But there's a difference between wanting to do something and a willingness to do it, and I don't have the will for this anymore. I need it back. If I could just hear her, things would be so much better. I want to do whatever it takes to achieve actual vocality. But to get that, I need to focus on her, and I just can't get myself to do that. For vocality, I just need to talk to her and wait for her to talk back, right? But one-sided conversations aren't something I have a desire to experience, especially considering the fact that she's supposed to be the talkative one who asks me to do things with her and I'm more of a quiet person who just goes along with stuff. Ugh, listen to me making up these excuses, I just... I don't even know what I'm asking for here. I know I'm lazy and incompetent and I don't know if it's possible for anyone to help me, but I really, really, really need this. Something needs to change as soon as possible, otherwise I'll just continue spending an indefinite amount of time ignoring her all day, then briefly acknowledging her right before I go to sleep to apologize for ignoring her, and then doing the same thing the next day and the day after that for months and months and months while my resolve continues to get worse and worse.

tl;dr I started this 11 months ago and have lost the desire to do this so much that I'm pretty sure I'm actually worse off than I was when I started (did I mention that my visualization is worse than it was before I started?) with the increased bonus of having nowhere near the amount of excitement and determination I had in the beginning. I feel like I fucked up beyond repair, and if it IS repairable, the process will now feel like tedious labor rather than fun-filled daydreaming.

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